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Post by Elijah on Mar 9, 2016 17:22:54 GMT
It seems the courts that surround us have accused the court of Red Deer of breaching Elysium during the gathering in February. I was not present at the time so I need some verification of who is the offender and what they did. I need this information before the next court, for if the person(s) who breached our sacred grounds is not reprimanded before we convene court again the whole city will be disgraced and our right to Elysium will be withdrawn. This city has many issues but let us not be brought down by the surroundings when we have enough problems here already.
I ask the Harpy and the Keeper to give this matter their attention. Harpy please contact the harpies in Edmonton and Calgary to see what transgression was committed. Keeper, I ask that you ensure the one who is at fault is punished properly. This should be a simple matter to deal with and I expect to have this wrapped up soon.
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Post by Allen Schezar on Mar 9, 2016 17:35:51 GMT
I believe they are referring to the conflicting between Elder Eric highcastle and THEN Prince Barbara Windsor. That would be the only incident that night that would of maybe breached elysium.
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Inara Shepard
Ancilla
Dont. Poke. The. God. Damn. Bear.
Posts: 378 
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Post by Inara Shepard on Mar 9, 2016 18:37:42 GMT
May I ask, what exactly was done during that conflict in your eyes, that was considered a breach of Elysium?
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Post by Raphael De La Cruz on Mar 9, 2016 18:45:38 GMT
I cannot shine light on that incident in particular, but the courtly protocol was one of my specialties in Spain while I served a lesser harpy.
Generally speaking, Elysium is breached in the following ways.
1. Physical violence.
2. Threats of violence beyond the veiled insults we trade with each other.
3. Frenzying. Whether it be from hunger, rage, or fire we are all expected to be withing full control of our faculties at a gather. From my investigations I have heard that this court has suffered a breach like this once before.
4. Forcefully using Disciplines upon a fellow Kindred. This is generally waved in the case of the Nosferatu so that they made hide their visages.
5. Allowing a non-Kindred on Elysium grounds (ghoul servants notwithstanding), those that have drank the heartsblood are also under this prohibition.
Punishment is quite severe. The negative status of Disgraced is inflicted upon the offender for a year and a day. Further punishment is also levied but the specifics up to the discretion of the Keeper or Prince. In many cases final death was levied, and even punishments that were said to be merciful they involved prolonged torture, starvation, long-term staking and so on. Without Elysium, we cannot gather safely, thus the punishments are so severe as to discourage further breaches.
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Post by Allen Schezar on Mar 10, 2016 1:20:56 GMT
May I ask, what exactly was done during that conflict in your eyes, that was considered a breach of Elysium? I apologize for the late response but Wanted to make sure my assumption was right.(OOC: had to look it up in the book)
The Basic rules of Elysium are simple and clear
1. Elysium is considered neutral, sanctified ground separate from sect or politics
2. violence of any kind is strictly forbidden upon Elysium grounds. This rule includes forcefully using disciplines, even gentle one such as Dominate or Presence , upon other guests. Some Elysium's discourage the use of any discipline except to protect the Masquerade.
3. Presence of Moon-beasts, Wild ones or those who have drunk of there blood if forbidden
4. No one may destroy art within Elysium
5. All Hunting is prohibited in the area around Elysium.
6. the Elysium and its contents are sacrosanct and shall not be damaged
7.the Keeper's word is Law on these grounds and she/he can traditionally punish or execute anyone who violates Elysium.
So given the Rules set forward by the Camarilla I believe this altercation between Elder Eric High Castle and then Prince Barbara Windsor is indeed the Breach the courts of Edmonton and Calgary are claiming. Elder Barbara Windsor forcefully used a Presence Discipline on Elder Eric High Castle who also used a Discipline to project himself In astro form within Elysium. So if I was to guess I would say there is the issue the other courts are calling a breach. This is the on incident that occurred that night at Elysium to my knowledge so this is the only thing I can think it would be.
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Post by Allen Schezar on Mar 10, 2016 1:24:43 GMT
(OOC: those rules are basically word for word from the book page 385 for those who are wondering.)
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Inara Shepard
Ancilla
Dont. Poke. The. God. Damn. Bear.
Posts: 378
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Post by Inara Shepard on Mar 10, 2016 1:30:19 GMT
Alexander, maybe that is all that happened in your mind, but there was much that went on behind the scenes that you probably weren't even aware of. That being said, it could very well be Elder Marchands use of abilities that evening that are also being considered a breach.
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Post by Allen Schezar on Mar 10, 2016 1:41:32 GMT
That is very true Inara, I am only suggesting what it might be so that we have an Idea as to what the problem is. If this matter is not resolved by next court WE ALL are consider disgraced I believe. In truth it could be both Elder Mar'chands use of his disciplines as well as the Elder Highcastle's and Elder/Harpy(since I am talking about her in present day now) Barbara Windsor's use of disciplines. Usually though the things done behind scenes that is not witnessed by all kindred would not be counted for it is only hear say. I believe Elder Mar'chand used his Disciplines but seeing as how it was done in private and "BEHIND THE SCENES" it would not technically be breaching Elysium then, for its one word against the other(in this case 2 or 3 against his). Simple put we will need verification from the other courts on what the breach was.
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Inara Shepard
Ancilla
Dont. Poke. The. God. Damn. Bear.
Posts: 378
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Post by Inara Shepard on Mar 10, 2016 1:43:30 GMT
Verification would be quite useful, yes.
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Post by Raphael De La Cruz on Mar 10, 2016 1:45:57 GMT
Closed doors means nothing if the former Harpy was still on Elysium grounds, the only thing that matters is what reaches the public eye.
If we truly are ignorant and other Courts are not, then that does not bode well for our Court's reputation. To be unaware of what constitutes a breach of the most important tradition next to the Masquerade belies a basic ignorance of our ancient beliefs.
Edit: Correct
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Post by Allen Schezar on Mar 10, 2016 2:06:46 GMT
while we are on the topic of Breaching Elysium. wouldn't the Windsor then be a broken Elysium and not be able to be made an Elysium again?
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Post by Jack McVitie on Mar 10, 2016 3:44:19 GMT
Now I don't know exactly what this is all about but since I was an still am the keeper. I'll put in my two pence on the matter.
2. violence of any kind is strictly forbidden upon Elysium grounds. This rule includes forcefully using disciplines, even gentle one such as Dominate or Presence , upon other guests. Some Elysium's discourage the use of any discipline except to protect the Masquerade.
Note the word "upon other guests" since majesty, awe more less all of obfuscate (the word forcefully is important with those that are directed) is not applied to anyone is in this keeper opinion exempt from this rule. Several princes all over the world use majesty during court several of them Ventrue I might add Mr. Drako so you might want to be careful about this stance. The point is titled violence for a reason!
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Post by Allen Schezar on Mar 10, 2016 4:38:43 GMT
Keeper Mcvitie
Forcefully implies that's the behavior of a kindred is altered against their own will, that they would act other wise differently. Majesty forces respect, it's literally the whole point of that power.
You claim that "several" princes all over the world use this power to run their courts. Please name one Prince that currently and openly uses Majesty run there court for all to see. I come from a prestigious line of ventrue, my Grandsire is the prince of Austin and he would never openly use majesty in the middle of an Elysium or court, Nor would any other ventrue I know. These are the rules the camarilla have put in place for our Elysiums and we need to respect and follow them.
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Post by Kaspar Alsergrund on Mar 10, 2016 4:47:42 GMT
[OOC: Before this goes too far, I think that Kyle needs to make a ruling on what is and what is not accepted practice in Elysium. I can see people starting to say...Queen Anne does in London...Good ole Villon would never do it in Paris etc.]
Kyle...thoughts...if need be, Kaspar will use his Camarilla Lore to enlighten the group of the use of Disciplines in Elysium in THIS World of Darkness setting.
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Post by Allen Schezar on Mar 10, 2016 5:05:44 GMT
OOC: hey all i'm for Kyle's ruling, Im just playing it as this is how my guy interprets the rules from the book. Makes for more fun. but yes I agree don't want to throw names around but since that door was opened figured why not.
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