House Keeping

Well, as a acknowledge specialist in Camarilla Law, Clan Lores and many other things I got a few words to throw in.

First. All my knowledge means NOTHING just as all of yours means NOTHING. It only means something if our betters listen to our words. BUT, some things come into play by default of being public.

There are only TWO people who matter in this discussion and only one has weighed in. The Keeper, whose very Job and Duty Mr. Drakos, is to DETERMINE what is and is not acceptable in his Ellysium. it does not behoove our clan image to spout half the rules and choose to interpret them how we will and dictating to the Keeper how he should see things while ignoring the part that says HE is the ultimate authority on this. The only exception is the Prince adding a curiosity to refine it. And even more disrespecting Status and then ignoring the parts of the Laws that address this.

Even the Prince answers to the Keeper on Ellysium. If the Keeper says as long as no one is hurt or forced to do something fully against their will that breaks it then that is the rule.

Entrancement does not FORCE anyone to do anything. It makes them like you more. period.

Also, why try to bring something up and create a second breach of Ellysium that did not exist? It does not negate the first only compounds the transgression and our shame in the eyes of the rest of the Camarilla, Imperator and Inner Circle.

Next, I suggest you offer some serious compensation to ANYONE with more status than you in this discussion unless you have more status than the Harpy had at the time you are accusing him of making this supposed transgression. It is your status that has openly made the accusation. If you wanted to do it otherwise you should have done it privately to someone who had the status to make the claim thus making their status the accusing. You are lucky the new Hapry has not weighed in on you challenging the Keeper and everything else. I would suggest offering compensation to the Keeper also for your direct insults and challenges to him concerning what is his Domain of control.

And in addition as you publicly insulted the former harpy (who is not confirmed dead yet) and in declaring one a Ellysium breaker and more, you are automatically considered Warned as he is a Established Elder and you do not hold Authority, Commander, or Triumphant that I am aware of. I suggest showing respect and not opening your mouth as you can not speak to the Keeper or any officer of the court less it become even worse. Further if you want to avoid it becoming disgraced already I would be quickly paying the Keeper that minor boon for having broke the censure.

Lastly, I would offer you a trivial boon for my faupas in publicly chastising you since I am sure you have more status but you are currently Warned and disgracing our clan with your behavior. I am really not sure if you are a Elder or not but if you are I will still pay the trivial for my transgression.

That is indeed true Mr. Cruz. Though not in the strictest sense. Camarilla Law is nothing if not Malleable. A boon here, grease a palm there, have the support of the right elder and everything becomes subjective.

Violence is the utmost priority that never changes. However, as a Prince is within his right to interpret the traditions as he will so a Keeper gets to decide how heavy he wants to enforce transgressions and what he generally looks the other way over.

Were I to Dominate someone of great status on Elysium and be caught. I would surely feel his wrath if that is all there was to it. However, if I quietly went to the individual of great status and apologized by offering a boon of reasonable value for how big a gap in status we hold they would generally look the other way. If the keeper had been informed he would generally give me the opportunity to mitigate my error of judgment and punishment by offering him compensation also for disrespecting his jurisdiction. In the end I could get off as lightly as a slap on the wrist. Or if I took the stance tough shit then I could be put to death.

One of great status generally gets away with more. Would I, the low status individual stand up and accuse them? All they would have to say is no they didn't.

As in the cases of Princes who use Majesty to gather the attention of their court. Technically they should be put to death. But realistically the rules are Malleable depending on who enforces them and the ingenuity of the one breaking it.

Publicly vs Privately plays into this as demonstrated by the Status Established. Insult someone all you want, just don't do it publicly. Subtlety vs Blatantly. Make it too often and word gets out.

Also, by questioning the Keeper and challenging his position and Jurisdiction, when all he was doing was giving us a heads up of what he generally overlooks, is a great way to ensure he is NOT lenient with oneself should they ever breach a rule that they preached as hard and fast. And to have the ultimate punishment dealt out.

He also has the right to declare that all those who are not him or his deputies, but have the status to bear weapons must peacebond and or trigger lock them. Some status says you may wear weapons into Elysium it does not say how you get to wear them.

After all, by the standard rules as written, MOST of the members of this city including past Princes and Position holders should/could be put to final death for all the breaches that regularly occur. When I did my research before coming here all I could learn was that the city was riddled with strife and if not open breaches of Elysium then the rules were constantly bent so far as to be nearly round.


Lastly (for now) food for thought.

How is it determined if someone breaches Elysium say attacks a Primogen, the victim defends themselves fending off their blows without committing violence themselves. Then to end it Dominates them to leave Elysium. Meanwhile some Caitiff has already jumped into action and has grabbed a table leg and charging. The original attacker is about to do as Dominated to. Just as they begin to turn to flee the Caitiff jumps to the Primogens "defense" and begins beating the original attacker. Now a larger fight ensues others get involved in beating up the Caitiff and original attacker. The Keeper orders those with Presence to Dread gaze the Caitiff and original attacker and heard them from Elysium. Those who jumped in make sure to get a bunch of extra hits after this as the two leave. One of them enters torpor because one of these parting shots, a clever backstab, puts the Caitiff into Torpor.

Who is at fault? Who is in Breach of Elysium? Who was only doing their duty defending it?

My opinion. The Primogen, Keeper and those who only dread gazed were doing their duty. All others are in breach of Elysium since they did not stop once Elysium was secured and committed violence perpetrating and enhancing the original crime. Had the Caitiff not jump in the Primogen would have had the matter settled and the original attacker would have left. But because he did he forced the original attacker to have to fight through him to obey the compulsion. All those who jumped in when it was not requested or warranted chose to breach Elysium of their own will. Those who took parting shots after the offenders were being forced to leave breached Elysium.

I don't know how it is here, but I was taught that ONLY the Keeper has the right to order someone else to breach Elysium to defend it. Everyone else can not just jump in and make it a melee because someone already broke the rules. You can defend yourself but only to the degree needed to remove the offender from Elysium or end the threat to it. Excessive force is a breach unto itself. Yes circumstances exist where defending another in defense of Elysium is permitted but when this happens it is best to make sure you are only doing that. Defending another and Elysiumnot instigating excessive force.