Returning to the Fold

Interesting approach Primogen Kaspar. In the old world they are simply killed whenever they reach a high enough number to become an irritant, but I can see why things would be done differently across the ocean. Kudos.

The house of lies.

That blinds my eyes.

I warned of this.

I do not miss.

I earn your trust.

If I must.

Trust me.

[OOC: this is written assuming you have no Status...you might have one, I don't remember, if you do, amend the lines appropriately]

Mr. McVICCI:

I will answer this once, out of courtesy, to a no-status neonate trying to create waves where none exist.  Accept the answer, learn your place, and move on.

So does this mean that the Tremere, as is custom in our society when apologies and forgiveness is asked, are offering boons to everyone who suffered due to attempting to follow Camarilla Law? And, locally that being the Regent?



No.  As is Camarilla custom a Boon is offered when a Boon is offered, not when you want a Boon to be offered.

As his actions were on behalf of Clan Tremere then it goes to say that you accept any responsibilities for his actions?


No.  His actions were his actions.  Hence my using words like "sacrifice" and "hazardous".  Do not try and parse my words.


Of course I suppose we can expect a visit from the Justicariate themselves to announce this and make it binding and official. I can hardly await the report.



You of course, may wait all you wish.  If the Justicariate visited the site of every report that would negate the point of a report.  You may think yourself important enough to require a visit but, no, you are wrong.  You (used in the pejorative sense) are insignificant in the greater scheme.  I am not sure why you think you would be privy to any such report I file.


I myself and Clan Ventrue suffered greatly in trying to persecute a Bloodhunt that was "fake". In trying to perform my duties to this city I lost my faithful retainer whom has served me many years. And the former Harpy died in this experiment causing a breach of the Sixth Tradition no matter who was Prince.



I wasn't fake.  It was rightly earned and it was rescinded with no input (of substance) from me.  The point was to see how individuals would react, and react they did.

So since I had invested not only much time but much of my personal blood in my retainer I will accept a Blood Boon from the Tremere Regent as I believe you asked for us to forgive him. But as for my time and business concerns that now suffer because of this loss I will accept a Major boon from him and all shall be forgiven and forgotten.


Attempt to claim all you want.  How you reacted was your own business.  Just because I, politely, asked individuals to forgive him, does not mean they will.  That is their decision.


And since he pretended to be a Ventrue, a bloodline that is Sacred, it is a very large insult to the Clan worth at least a Blood Boon of itself to whomever holds leadership/Primogency of our clan presently. That would be Edvin Lang



Actually, he did not pretend anything.  For that time period he essentially was Caitiff.  If you are disgusted and embarrassed that your "sacred" Clan were willing to adopt a Caitiff, well that is a mirror you will have to look in and accept on your own.  You cannot fault any but your own for that.  As an aside, he attempted to join the Malkavians and was rebuffed.  He attempted to go so far as to join a non-pillar clan, the Gangrel, and was rebuffed.  It was your "Sacred" clan, under the, then, leadership of Gabriel, that allowed him to join.  I guess we can now see that the Malkavians and the Gangrel both are more particular about their bloodlines.  Of course, this is a very particular interpretation of those events.  Such an acceptance surprised me, and I highly doubt that such an adoption would be repeated under Prince Elijah. 

That is what you were offering right? As is the customs and proper Presentation in the Camarilla?


Hopefully, you will have now seen that all propriety was properly followed.  Mr. SMITHEE declared he was Caitiff.  He lived the life of a Caitiff, with the resultant scorn.  He was adopted by the Ventrue.  He paid whatever prices he had to.  He was declared Forsaken.  He earned his way back in and had the Forsaken lifted.  All on his own.  With no pressure or guidance from me.  If you are offended that his declaration was contrived for other reasons, then that is unfortunate


I did notice that there was no Granting of Sanctioned by the Justicariate itself for all the actions. Though in the Chaos they would probably have to come to town themselves to do that rather than pass it on through a secondary source.



As a neonate with no status I can forgive you ignorance of the rarely granted trait of "Sanctioned".  Having been Sanctioned myself for centuries I can tell you that Sanctioning is for highly trusted individuals that, periodically, need to work outside the normal confines of the Camarilla.  This does not fall remotely within that.  


Declarations of Caitiff do not simply go away. As he has just re-joined the Camarilla can we assume he is suffering from a Status ban?

I am troubled by your hypocrisy.  Apparently, adoption by the Ventrue is all it takes for "declarations" of Caitiff to "go away".  As I mentioned above, it was when he was "adopted" by your Clan that he became Forsaken.  I would say that is more of a stain on your Clan than anything.  But, that was a decision that Gabriel made.  Something that I am sure both Prince Elijah and Primogen LANGE would have done differently.

Hopefully, you have taken this "lesson" to heart.  I will not be so patient in the future.

There are more polite and politic ways of asking questions or voicing concerns.  For whatever reason, you chose to and insulting and confrontational tone.  Furthermore, your arguments were ill-conceived, poorly articulated and showed little in the way of thought.

Let me leave you with this.  Are you able to point to a policy of the Camarilla saying that an individual is not permitted to declare themselves Caitiff? Perhaps a subsection of that policy would relate specifically to motives for declaring oneself Caitiff. I have attended every Grand Conclave and the majority of Judicial Conclaves since the inception of the Camarilla. I have been involved in drafting Camarilla policy. I am recognized as one of the foremost experts on Camarilla law and history. I was there when the Camarilla was founded. Surely, since you have publicly insulted, disagreed and, even chastised me.  When I posted, I listed my Status, so that there would be little question as to the veracity and correctness of what I say.

I have chosen, this time, to ignore your tone, your suggestions, your innuendo and your machinations.

When I said, "if you have any questions..." I had thought that the word "politely" was implied.  Be thankful this Established Elder is not taking complete insult to your "questions"

Kaspar

This brings many questions to mind, alastor. The first and most outstanding is why are you still in our fair city when it is your Duty to the camarilla to hunt the red listed kindred?
Unless and now this is all from memory of distant past that you rejected the mark which would bring shame to you and in effect all tremere that call the red deer chantry home, Or you are simply just lieing about bringing destruction to a red list and using this lofty veil of non communication to best suite your needs.

So I ask you alastor which is it?

It is interesting seeing how things are dealt with so differently in the New World, and how one's perception of what an Elder is can change based on geographic location.

I thank you for the illuminating education, Primogen Kaspar.