Officers of the Sect/Court

Prince MAESTRODOMINICO:

The norm of the city of Red Deer, and most cities, has been that Primogen is not a Office of the Court, it is purely an advisory council, exactly as Harpy McVICCI stated.

In deference to the Harpy's words and experience, the question of whether or not the Scourge position is to be considered an Officer of the Court is more pressing.

While not ideal, the Scourge is often the first point of contact for many individuals coming to a new city.  Primogen are supposed to be the point person for Clans and new comers.  However, for those Clans that are less organized than either the Tremere or Ventrue, or etiquette-conscious like the Toreador, Scourges are often contacted first to ensure Hospitality is fulfilled.  This is difficult to do for a Neonate who does not have the station to approach an Officer of the Court without introduction.  

It is the Scourge's job to find new and unacknowledged Kindred.  If the new Kindred is not permitted to approach the Scourge and introduce themselves, and they do not know their Primogen or they do not have one (as Clan Assamite, or until recently, Clan Gangrel), then there is a systemic breach of Hospitality built in, and plausible deniability for those who wish to not be acknowledged.

Not having the Scourge as an Officer of the Court is a common method for dealing with this problem.

Having to introduce yourself to someone you are not allowed to introduce yourself to is rather problematic.

Kaspar

I think you both are correct. But the other head of the coin is that how would they know it is the scourge if they hadn't already had a chance to present themselves? If they know the scourge they should know who they should have gone to strait off or where the permanent Ellysium is that they could have gone to, to make inquiries.

And they can pay a boon for any slight to maintain protocol.

Harpy McVICCI:

We are getting into the world of what ifs, and what ifs can be done to death.

The simple matter is, that any Kindred coming into a city can ask any Kindred who the Scourge is, find the Scourge and introduce themselves.  Thus, preventing a breach of Hospitality.

By elevating the office of Scourge to Officer of the Court, you systemically prevent the majority of Kindred from fulfilling the Tradition of Hospitality upon their arrival.  

The what ifs, howevers, and other case-by-case specifics can be debated in the halls of the Ivory Tower.  There must be a mechanism, outside the Primogen, for a Kindred to fulfill their obligation, without that mechanism, then accusations of failing to report gain, at least, a prima facie, legitimacy.

I have said all I wish to say on this matter.

Thank you, Prince MAESTRODOMINICO for taking views into account prior to rendering a decision.

Kaspar

As I said to start.

Prince. How do you wish me to interpret this?

Primogen
The Primogen are the assembled elders of each clan in a city. Most often, each clan has a representative Primogen, but in some cities a Prince refuses to allow a given clan to place a member on this council of elders. In principle, Primogen represent their clans among the political body of elders. Primogen – the term refers to individual members as well as the collected body – convene at the Prince’s discretion.

They are the heads of their respective clans, and the Primogen Council serves as Advisors within the Domain of Red Deer. They are not officers of the Court, though they do carry the status of NOBLE. Show them the proper respect that they deserve. I expect that any newcomer to the city would first attempt to meet with their clan. Either that or find Elysium and then pay Boons to find the right people.

The Primogen are responsible for the actions of their clans, and it is their responsibility to dole out Punishment where it is due. Do not take this lightly.

Sheriff

The sheriff generally assists with the “muscle” aspects of ruling, doing everything from hauling offenders to court to keeping order on the streets and occasionally bouncing fools from Elysium. During wartime, the sheriff is often called on to be the war-chief, leading charges and coordinating the martial side of the fight. A sheriff may select deputies to assist him, who often act full in his authority.

As you yourself pointed out to Apprentice Orsini it pays to educate oneself on the particulars so I shall inform all Primogen here so that they may in turn educate their Clans.


As directly given to us by the Prince. If you can ask who the Scourge is you can ask who your Primogen is. The Scourge is there to kill those who have not presented themselves and is not a tool to bypass hospitality. Presenting yourself to them in no way prevents a breach of Hospality. They ONLY way to do this is by Presenting yourself to the Prince/Domain Holder and having them informed you are there so that you may remain safe until you can be brought directly before them.

Someone can buy a stay of execution and delay in their need to present themselves by informing their Primogen they are in town, at which point the Primogen will inform the Prince and offer to accept responsibility for this individual and their actions until they can be Acknowledged into the city. The Prince will generally allow them leniency until the next gather with the Primogen taking on this responsibility. The Primogen is then directly responsible for them and their actions.

Someone can also potentially buy this same stay of execution by finding someone else to speak to the Prince on their behalf and accept responsibility for them until they can be acknowledged. It would be possible to PAY the Scourge to do this should they encounter them.

If you have connections you may be able to arrange a meeting with the Prince to gain early acknowledgment or temporary acceptance as would a visiting dignitary.

You, on entering the domain can head straight to the Elysium and wait there in safety until you find someone who can present you.

Or, you can wait until a night of Gathering and head straight there and again find someone to represent you.

In absolutely no way does any of this give someone who is not Acknowledged the right to feed in the city. Not in ANY feeding territory without the Princes direct say so. So when accepting responsibility for a visitor and speaking to the Prince it would be best to request and pay for this right (feel free to pass it on or ask the Prince if they will accept a boon from this newcomer to feed before they are acknowledged). Allowing an unacknowledged Kindred to feed in your territory knowingly is making the plain and bold statement that you feel you are above the Law and are willing to Harbor, aid and abet unacknowledged Kindred.


So to Clarify, getting Acknowledgment, grants safety from the Scourge and from anyone else who stumbles across you, and it also grants the right to feed in the Rack or in your Clans feeding territory.


Hospitality is ONLY satisfied once the Prince Acknowledges you in their domain or you hold appropriate Status to travel in it without the Princes Acknowledgment.


THE FIFTH TRADITION: HOSPITALITY
Honor one another's domain. When thou comest to a
foreign city, thou shall present thyself to the one who
ruleth there. Without the word of acceptance, thou art
nothing.