Post by Michael on Aug 30, 2016 15:41:12 GMT
This is something something that Elder Lepus should be VERY interested in.
I have recently been consulting with Various Harpies and others of standing and particular reputations concerning Monikers as we now have three individuals from Red Deer that suffer under one.
I have recently been called to pay in debts abroad, may of which left me curious as to why certain areas of my expertise have been being called on without explanations as to why.
Recently, due to the elevation in my standing by becoming Harpy, I have learned somethings that I had not previously been fully aware of as it rarely comes up.
It seems in the North America's we are unique in many ways, mainly in how unstable many of our Domain positions are when it comes to having individuals hold these positions for any period of time. Until very recently it has been left to each individual Prince to create a Curiosity to deal with this. However, due to the number of Elders that have been questioning being marked by Monikers from neonates or Ancillae that only hold a position for a short period of time. Elder Harpies and many who hold recognition for their knowledge have been behind the scenes trying to codify how they will view and deal with this.
Myself being but a neonate and until recently a non-position holder was not included in on the larger discussion as a whole, despite my reputation in this area. As mentioned I had been growing curious however as some of my discussions abroad were very targeted to positions and shifts in them.
Due to the frequent changes in various positions the Harpies of the world, more particularly of the America's have come to allow some lassitude and freedom in removing certain Monikers. This is in some ways a prelude to becoming officially enforced, a test to ensure that the structure of the Camarilla will not be threatened by allowing others to remove them without granting Sanctioning for said crimes.
It seems that given proper reason it is within the powers and discretion of a Master Harpy to remove certain Monikers assigned within their Domain. Monikers assigned by position holders who no longer hold the position that granted the Moniker. As of yet it is not very common and other Harpies who have done so are always erring on the side of caution, ensuring that the individual has indeed proven they deserve to have it removed.
Many of you are familiar with the term "Boon Breaker", "Profane" and "Blood Hunted" these are examples of negative monikers. It is not commonly taught what they mean but rather that you do not want them assigned to you. Many think it is just a simple term, but it is much more than that. Other Monikers that you may recognize are positive, "Elder" and "Ancillae". Both of these come with positive status, the negative ones come with negative status.
Here is why it has been a issue of discussion among Elder Harpies. The Camarilla defines a Moniker further. Their official definition is:
A moniker is a social class that a character possesses that grants them status or negative status. Status may be expended as usual, but returns at the same rate as Abiding Status. Negative status granted from a moniker may not be removed as long as the moniker exists.
NO spent or other effect of status may remove the negative status granted by a Moniker.
So, can I use Favored to get rid of Boonbreaker?
The answer is No. Because Boonbreaker isn’t a Negative Status. It’s a moniker that carries the negative status Disgraced. (see MET: VTM, page 397.)
Can I use Favored to get rid of Bloodhunted?
Again No. Bloodhunted is a moniker that grants the negative status Forsaken. Negative status granted from a moniker may not be removed as long as the moniker exists.
OOC a update in the faq's from by night studio) The following line from MET: VTM (see MET: VTM, 389) suggests that I can: “The target of a blood hunt receives the negative status trait Bloodhunted, which confers the following penalties:”
Answer: No, the status Favored cannot remove the moniker Bloodhunted. That’s an error in the text.
"Profane" Can be granted instantly by the Keeper for a breach of Elysium, in their absence anyone who holds the Guardian status, or the Prince for breaches of Elysium. This is separate from the Disgraced received for breaking Elysium. If granted this has not end duration and can last beyond the year and a day, until the Keeper decides to remove it.
Believe me you desire this over the alternative which is final death (this does not rule out the possibility of such a measure latter being instituted).
So for the sanctity of our city make deals to silence everyone there and don't run around announcing that you did it. Pay the Boons to quite the matter and make it as if it didn't happen and in a suitable amount of time. Then it s the Kindred with loose lips that gets punished.
Some specific excerpts from my discussions abroad.
"The violator’s intent is not relevant, only that the laws of Elysium have been broken."
"One breach of Elysium does not sanction further breaches."
"When a breach happens, the Keeper of Elysium, Harpy and/or the Prince should severely punish the perpetrator. If the Kindred public becomes aware of a breach of Elysium and an appropriate punishment is not levied within 30 days, it causes scandal for every member of the domain; every vampire resident of the domain automatically receives the negative status trait Disgraced for three months."
"The Kindred who violated Elysium receives the negative status trait Disgraced for a year and a day. This is automatic if the Kindred public becomes aware of the breach and actions were not taken to keep it from becoming such. In addition, the Prince, Keeper of Elysium and Harpy are likely to levy devastating punishments, if not the Final Death."
"Once an Elysium has been breached, the location forever loses its sanctity. It can never again be considered an Elysium. Any investments in the location become useless in the eyes of the Camarilla. Vampires believe that owning such a property is bad luck. Long ago, if an Elysium was violated, vampires burned the very building to the ground and salted the earth so that nothing would ever grow there, as a warning to any Kindred who might dare to cause violence in an Elysium. We rarely salt the earth anymore however it is not uncommon for such locations to be destroyed or burned."
You get the gist.
Elder Barbara Windsor was NOT declared Profane. This means she only suffers the negative status Disgraced for a year and a day. And it CAN be removed by appropriate status expenditures of others. She is expected and required to uphold all boons she owes but no one else is expected or required to uphold those they owe her until the status is removed.
I have recently been consulting with Various Harpies and others of standing and particular reputations concerning Monikers as we now have three individuals from Red Deer that suffer under one.
I have recently been called to pay in debts abroad, may of which left me curious as to why certain areas of my expertise have been being called on without explanations as to why.
Recently, due to the elevation in my standing by becoming Harpy, I have learned somethings that I had not previously been fully aware of as it rarely comes up.
It seems in the North America's we are unique in many ways, mainly in how unstable many of our Domain positions are when it comes to having individuals hold these positions for any period of time. Until very recently it has been left to each individual Prince to create a Curiosity to deal with this. However, due to the number of Elders that have been questioning being marked by Monikers from neonates or Ancillae that only hold a position for a short period of time. Elder Harpies and many who hold recognition for their knowledge have been behind the scenes trying to codify how they will view and deal with this.
Myself being but a neonate and until recently a non-position holder was not included in on the larger discussion as a whole, despite my reputation in this area. As mentioned I had been growing curious however as some of my discussions abroad were very targeted to positions and shifts in them.
Due to the frequent changes in various positions the Harpies of the world, more particularly of the America's have come to allow some lassitude and freedom in removing certain Monikers. This is in some ways a prelude to becoming officially enforced, a test to ensure that the structure of the Camarilla will not be threatened by allowing others to remove them without granting Sanctioning for said crimes.
It seems that given proper reason it is within the powers and discretion of a Master Harpy to remove certain Monikers assigned within their Domain. Monikers assigned by position holders who no longer hold the position that granted the Moniker. As of yet it is not very common and other Harpies who have done so are always erring on the side of caution, ensuring that the individual has indeed proven they deserve to have it removed.
Many of you are familiar with the term "Boon Breaker", "Profane" and "Blood Hunted" these are examples of negative monikers. It is not commonly taught what they mean but rather that you do not want them assigned to you. Many think it is just a simple term, but it is much more than that. Other Monikers that you may recognize are positive, "Elder" and "Ancillae". Both of these come with positive status, the negative ones come with negative status.
Here is why it has been a issue of discussion among Elder Harpies. The Camarilla defines a Moniker further. Their official definition is:
A moniker is a social class that a character possesses that grants them status or negative status. Status may be expended as usual, but returns at the same rate as Abiding Status. Negative status granted from a moniker may not be removed as long as the moniker exists.
NO spent or other effect of status may remove the negative status granted by a Moniker.
So, can I use Favored to get rid of Boonbreaker?
The answer is No. Because Boonbreaker isn’t a Negative Status. It’s a moniker that carries the negative status Disgraced. (see MET: VTM, page 397.)
Can I use Favored to get rid of Bloodhunted?
Again No. Bloodhunted is a moniker that grants the negative status Forsaken. Negative status granted from a moniker may not be removed as long as the moniker exists.
OOC a update in the faq's from by night studio) The following line from MET: VTM (see MET: VTM, 389) suggests that I can: “The target of a blood hunt receives the negative status trait Bloodhunted, which confers the following penalties:”
Answer: No, the status Favored cannot remove the moniker Bloodhunted. That’s an error in the text.
"Profane" Can be granted instantly by the Keeper for a breach of Elysium, in their absence anyone who holds the Guardian status, or the Prince for breaches of Elysium. This is separate from the Disgraced received for breaking Elysium. If granted this has not end duration and can last beyond the year and a day, until the Keeper decides to remove it.
Believe me you desire this over the alternative which is final death (this does not rule out the possibility of such a measure latter being instituted).
So for the sanctity of our city make deals to silence everyone there and don't run around announcing that you did it. Pay the Boons to quite the matter and make it as if it didn't happen and in a suitable amount of time. Then it s the Kindred with loose lips that gets punished.
Some specific excerpts from my discussions abroad.
"The violator’s intent is not relevant, only that the laws of Elysium have been broken."
"One breach of Elysium does not sanction further breaches."
"When a breach happens, the Keeper of Elysium, Harpy and/or the Prince should severely punish the perpetrator. If the Kindred public becomes aware of a breach of Elysium and an appropriate punishment is not levied within 30 days, it causes scandal for every member of the domain; every vampire resident of the domain automatically receives the negative status trait Disgraced for three months."
"The Kindred who violated Elysium receives the negative status trait Disgraced for a year and a day. This is automatic if the Kindred public becomes aware of the breach and actions were not taken to keep it from becoming such. In addition, the Prince, Keeper of Elysium and Harpy are likely to levy devastating punishments, if not the Final Death."
"Once an Elysium has been breached, the location forever loses its sanctity. It can never again be considered an Elysium. Any investments in the location become useless in the eyes of the Camarilla. Vampires believe that owning such a property is bad luck. Long ago, if an Elysium was violated, vampires burned the very building to the ground and salted the earth so that nothing would ever grow there, as a warning to any Kindred who might dare to cause violence in an Elysium. We rarely salt the earth anymore however it is not uncommon for such locations to be destroyed or burned."
You get the gist.
Elder Barbara Windsor was NOT declared Profane. This means she only suffers the negative status Disgraced for a year and a day. And it CAN be removed by appropriate status expenditures of others. She is expected and required to uphold all boons she owes but no one else is expected or required to uphold those they owe her until the status is removed.