Post by Carrick Driscol on Sept 9, 2015 18:24:30 GMT
This is of course open to everyone's personal interpretation and their characters interpretation or their character outright trying to slip something by purposely.
Here are my thoughts concerning some of the recent discussions about boons. I am curious about how others have interpreted the book and their personal and characters views. As for Carrick I am playing his views in this manner also. Many characters may have already noted he will not accept a boon with stipulations (caveats) placed on it.
The book defines the value of a boon. To me this means that no matter what you can negotiate when calling it in, at a minimum you can ALWAYS get something that is listed in the descripton of a boon of that level.
It says that Harpies have spent 600+ years clarifying and defining the value of a boon. To me, my assumption is that they would look harshly on any individual or small number of individuals who want to challenge what the Harpies as a group world wide have deemed the value.
That said anything that falls between the lines would become the purview of the local Harpy to decide where it falls.
ie. Minor boon: helping someone find safe passage through a hostile city
Where does personally risking yourself to drive them in your own armored car through Sabbat held territory fall?
I would rate it as a Major personally but others might only see it as worth say 2 Minors. In a case like this the Local Harpy would be the authority to judge.
When it comes to stipulations (or Caveats as we seem to be now calling them in game) there is only 1 listed in the book. “You cannot physically harm me for the duration of this boon.” Interestingly this is not a protection for the debtor but specifically for the creditor (the one who holds the boon and can call it in).
I have a few thoughts on this.
1) Since the only stipulation listed in the book is to the benefit of the creditor, then generally any stipulation would be to the benefit to them and not the one owing the boon.
2) The Value of a boon as defined is exactly that.
a) You should not be able to put a stipulation on a Minor boon that says "You can not make me leverage my influences for you." This is in direct conflict with the defined value.
b) To change the defined value of a boon a character would be changing what ALL the Harpies world wide have decided that boon is worth.
c) This would be challenging their authority, not necessarily such a good idea.
3) Boons are one of the two biggest things that makes up the foundation of Camarilla society and makes it function. To change what is clearly defined is akin to simply refusing to "play by the system" as mentioned in the "Kindred Credit: Owing Boons" section. It is basically saying I want you to follow Camarilla Law but I am outside the system so do not have to.
4) Ultimately it is up to the Creditor to accept a boon with stipulations on it.
a) If someone approaches you and wants you to do something for them but wishes to minimize what debt they will owe you for the service, you can refuse.
b) If it is a service already provided and the debtor tries to put stipulations on the boon then you can go to the Harpy and the Harpy will decide the value of the service provided.
c) As a service provider you can NAME your price prior to providing the service. The Debtor can either accept your price or go elsewhere.
The Harpy is the ultimate authority of what can and can not be done (in-character) when it comes to boons and Status judgments. In my/Carricks view for someone to continually try to modify what has been determined and accepted Camarilla wide makes someone less trustworthy.
Carrick can theoretically go to any Camarilla city in the world and know what he can get for a Major boon. He knows that if he steps in the way of a pack of Anarchs, takes a bit of a beating/get his face shot off... and helps a Primogen escape that his service will be valued at a minimum of a Blood Boon. If he didn't know this he would not step in and protect said Primogen.
The beast in us is selfish, greedy and wants to be at the top of the pack. Though we might try hard to stay the course our agenda's change, other characters do things that piss us off, they step on our toes, etc. As such we charge boons or seek some other gain for our service.
If a character has the ultimate goal (a driving need/derangement) of becoming Prince, and they work for (in game time) several months with someone towards this end. Then a larger faction comes to them and says they will put them in power, pay them boons and all you have to do is hand over your current ally to them when you become Prince... The odds are we would gladly turn on our former ally if we were just dealing in "friendly quid pro quo off the books services" (nothing to bind us to agreements).
If you hold a Blood Boon on Richtor and Pickens is coming for you, you can call it in and he HAS to help you. If he steps aside he is a boon breaker and Harpies like nothing better than bringing someone down.
Boons are a commodity. Something of defined value that does not change. Much like gold reserves in the mortal world. You can offer to pay your debts with boons on other Kindred (some being more sought after than others due to their "clout"). The Creditor can always say no.
To me the defined value is in knowing what you can get when calling it in, when someone owes you a boon of that level.
When offering a boon for services, the defined value offers a guideline on what a service might be worth but it is just that a guideline. Someone can feel their information is more valuable under certain circumstances.
ie. $1.00 might get me a 573ml coke from the McDonalds on North Gaetz. But if I go to RDC the same 573ml might cost me $1.25. This is an example of someone offering a service/product and deciding that their location makes it more valuable.
If however, you have a "free 573ml pop" voucher from McDonalds you know you can get the 573ml of Coke from ANY McDonalds restaurant.
I see the Harpy is the arbiter, they can decide if they feel it is scandalous to modify the value or put stipulations on boons that is their choice. They may view it as such and so refuse to register it that way. You can always register it in another city (making sure that the scene is played out and that the ST send notification of the registered boon WITH stipulations to the local Harpy).
Other characters can deem such changes as an affront to what they feel to be the Camarilla and declare someone Vulgar. Or perhaps warned.
Here are my thoughts concerning some of the recent discussions about boons. I am curious about how others have interpreted the book and their personal and characters views. As for Carrick I am playing his views in this manner also. Many characters may have already noted he will not accept a boon with stipulations (caveats) placed on it.
The book defines the value of a boon. To me this means that no matter what you can negotiate when calling it in, at a minimum you can ALWAYS get something that is listed in the descripton of a boon of that level.
It says that Harpies have spent 600+ years clarifying and defining the value of a boon. To me, my assumption is that they would look harshly on any individual or small number of individuals who want to challenge what the Harpies as a group world wide have deemed the value.
That said anything that falls between the lines would become the purview of the local Harpy to decide where it falls.
ie. Minor boon: helping someone find safe passage through a hostile city
Where does personally risking yourself to drive them in your own armored car through Sabbat held territory fall?
I would rate it as a Major personally but others might only see it as worth say 2 Minors. In a case like this the Local Harpy would be the authority to judge.
When it comes to stipulations (or Caveats as we seem to be now calling them in game) there is only 1 listed in the book. “You cannot physically harm me for the duration of this boon.” Interestingly this is not a protection for the debtor but specifically for the creditor (the one who holds the boon and can call it in).
I have a few thoughts on this.
1) Since the only stipulation listed in the book is to the benefit of the creditor, then generally any stipulation would be to the benefit to them and not the one owing the boon.
2) The Value of a boon as defined is exactly that.
a) You should not be able to put a stipulation on a Minor boon that says "You can not make me leverage my influences for you." This is in direct conflict with the defined value.
b) To change the defined value of a boon a character would be changing what ALL the Harpies world wide have decided that boon is worth.
c) This would be challenging their authority, not necessarily such a good idea.
3) Boons are one of the two biggest things that makes up the foundation of Camarilla society and makes it function. To change what is clearly defined is akin to simply refusing to "play by the system" as mentioned in the "Kindred Credit: Owing Boons" section. It is basically saying I want you to follow Camarilla Law but I am outside the system so do not have to.
4) Ultimately it is up to the Creditor to accept a boon with stipulations on it.
a) If someone approaches you and wants you to do something for them but wishes to minimize what debt they will owe you for the service, you can refuse.
b) If it is a service already provided and the debtor tries to put stipulations on the boon then you can go to the Harpy and the Harpy will decide the value of the service provided.
c) As a service provider you can NAME your price prior to providing the service. The Debtor can either accept your price or go elsewhere.
The Harpy is the ultimate authority of what can and can not be done (in-character) when it comes to boons and Status judgments. In my/Carricks view for someone to continually try to modify what has been determined and accepted Camarilla wide makes someone less trustworthy.
Carrick can theoretically go to any Camarilla city in the world and know what he can get for a Major boon. He knows that if he steps in the way of a pack of Anarchs, takes a bit of a beating/get his face shot off... and helps a Primogen escape that his service will be valued at a minimum of a Blood Boon. If he didn't know this he would not step in and protect said Primogen.
The beast in us is selfish, greedy and wants to be at the top of the pack. Though we might try hard to stay the course our agenda's change, other characters do things that piss us off, they step on our toes, etc. As such we charge boons or seek some other gain for our service.
If a character has the ultimate goal (a driving need/derangement) of becoming Prince, and they work for (in game time) several months with someone towards this end. Then a larger faction comes to them and says they will put them in power, pay them boons and all you have to do is hand over your current ally to them when you become Prince... The odds are we would gladly turn on our former ally if we were just dealing in "friendly quid pro quo off the books services" (nothing to bind us to agreements).
If you hold a Blood Boon on Richtor and Pickens is coming for you, you can call it in and he HAS to help you. If he steps aside he is a boon breaker and Harpies like nothing better than bringing someone down.
Boons are a commodity. Something of defined value that does not change. Much like gold reserves in the mortal world. You can offer to pay your debts with boons on other Kindred (some being more sought after than others due to their "clout"). The Creditor can always say no.
To me the defined value is in knowing what you can get when calling it in, when someone owes you a boon of that level.
When offering a boon for services, the defined value offers a guideline on what a service might be worth but it is just that a guideline. Someone can feel their information is more valuable under certain circumstances.
ie. $1.00 might get me a 573ml coke from the McDonalds on North Gaetz. But if I go to RDC the same 573ml might cost me $1.25. This is an example of someone offering a service/product and deciding that their location makes it more valuable.
If however, you have a "free 573ml pop" voucher from McDonalds you know you can get the 573ml of Coke from ANY McDonalds restaurant.
I see the Harpy is the arbiter, they can decide if they feel it is scandalous to modify the value or put stipulations on boons that is their choice. They may view it as such and so refuse to register it that way. You can always register it in another city (making sure that the scene is played out and that the ST send notification of the registered boon WITH stipulations to the local Harpy).
Other characters can deem such changes as an affront to what they feel to be the Camarilla and declare someone Vulgar. Or perhaps warned.
